cameronsforum

Cameron · Site Admin Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 18

The following is a message I submitted to UTStarcom (handsets@mailnj.custhelp.com) on 1/02/2007 at 11:59 AM:

Subject: GPS, I'm sure you get a lot of these

Dear UTStarcom,

Hello, my name is Cameron. I have a question regarding a Pocket PC phone. I own a PPC-6700 (HTC-APACHE), and I believe I have read more into this phone than should be possible. I have every datasheet, specification sheet, and review sheets of this phone legally acquirable. I know that the chipset that is in this phone is the MSM6500 and the the manufacturer states very clearly that the chip can be placed into Standalone GPS mode from the MSM6500 Chipset Specs(*). This device should not only provide a standalone GPS mode, it should also be accurate within "street corner accuracy"(*)."Standalone GPS modes provides optimal performance both on and off-network"(*)."...gpsOne® also operates in Standalone mode, without requiring any assistance data from the network"(*and*). Wikipedia's defines Standalone gpsOne® as "Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location"(*). All of this just means meaning this should have nothing to do with the network or carrier, and is a dependent feature of the device itself. I also know that "# - Location cannot be obtained when EVDO devices are in an EVDO data session."(*), meaning it has nothing to do with EVDO.

Phone Specs:

Carrier: Sprint
Model/Make: PPC6700
ROM version: 2.06.00 WWE
ROM date: 02/22/06
Radio version: 1.12.00
Protocol version: SNAZ-40306
Hardware version: 0041
PRL version: 1.13_003
Browser version: MSIE 4.01

My questions (Q:) and comments (C:) are as follows (I apologize for all of the 'Why's):

Q:1. How can I place the phone into standalone mode?
C: Yes. It does support it. It is possible, everyone has come to that conclusion.

Q:2. Why (If it is disabled) is it disabled?

Q:3. How (If it is disabled) is it disabled?

Q:4. If something is preventing enabling, what is it?

Q:5. Why did Standalone work on the first generations of ROMs on the 6600?

Q:6. Why does a Verizon VX6700 Phone (which is the same phone?), have the ability to gather data from fieldtrial.exe's GPS tab when making a call (to phone number: 922 and the obvious 911)? Some other people who are also as interested in this as myself with the sprint carrier, have tried every single thing possible, including dialing 911, but still not one single bit of data appears in fieldtrial.exe
C:I will try to save you from giving me the carrier dependent affiliation response. Dialing 911 is not a recommended action.

Q:7. What is different between Sprint and Verizon's ROM that makes the change in operability, or am I missing something that is different in the schematics of the phone itself?

C: I have heard everything: "It doesn't work on the Sprint BMF framework", "You need to be a Sprint Developer to have access to that function and API", and "You need a Certificate from VeriSign for 400$". Possibilities exist for everything. Nothing is impossible.

Most people do not understand my point of view. It is possible for me to buy a Bluetooth GPS receiver and have better accuracy, but I choose not to. It's not about the accuracy, it's about having something there, but not being able to touch it, to use it, to explore it's potential. It would be like buying a new car with ONStar® and not being able to use it because GM doesn't let you. I know this is definitely not the first inquiry you have received, and it will most likely not be the last.For this I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please feel free to do a little bit of investigation on this matter if you need to, and help me fix this problem. Thank you for your time and patience in reviewing this matter with me.

Sincerely,

Cameron Julsrud
Cameron.says.hey@gmail.com

Cited resources:

(*)Qualcomm's MSM6500 Chipset Overview:
(Factual, stated by manufacturer of MSM6500 chipset contained within the PPC-6700, VX6700, and HTC-APACHE)
http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/msm6500_chipset.pdf

(*)Qualcomm's gpsOne® Overview:
(Factual, stated by creator, owner, and programmer of gpsOne®)
http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/gpsone_overview.pdf

(*)Sprint's Fact Sheet on GPS:
(Factual, stated by distributor and carrier of PPC-6700)
http://developer.sprint.com/getDocument.do?docId=88996

(*)Wikipedia's gpsOne® Information:
(Conclusively factual, sources sited)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GpsOne#What_it_does

FTP folder containing images and information:
(Inconclusive: First hand statement without proof of stated accuracy, although appearing legitimate) Screenshots from GPS data from a VX6700 using fieldtrial.exe (in the windows folder when installed with WM5). He claims it is within 100 feet of accuracy
http://stuff.michiganbroadband.com/xv6700-gps/

Forums pertaining to this topic:
(Miscellaneous)
http://pdaphonehome.com/forums/ppc-6700-xv6700/73387-possible-access-gps-data-6700-a-1.html
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/showpost.aspx?postid=287518&siteid=1&PageID=2
_________________
Sir?
It's Trojan: "Pleasure you want. Protection you trust."

Cameron · Site Admin Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 18

Response (Dario O.) 01/08/2007 02:16 PM
I am UTStarcom PDA Coordinator: I looked up your name and we only see one from today when you spoke to Aly N.

Your questions about the chipset are proprietary information some I cannot answer. The 6700 device does support GPS. The compatibility must be WM5.0 and must come with a bluetooth GPS connector.

My questions (Q Smile

and comments (C Smile

are as follows (I apologize for all of the 'Why's): (D) for Dario

Q:1. How can I place the phone into standalone mode?
C: Yes. It does support it. It is possible, everyone has come to that conclusion.
D: Sprint does not allow that feature through PPC6700 and there is no update for that feature.

Q:2. Why (If it is disabled) is it disabled?
D: Sprint disabled it

Q:3. How (If it is disabled) is it disabled?
D: Sprint's request

Q:4. If something is preventing enabling, what is it?
D: Proprietary information

Q:5. Why did Standalone work on the first generations of ROMs on the 6600?
D: Most likely with ROM 1.05wwe. Sprint and other carriers just wanted to disable that feature because they intend on not supporting "Standalone."

Q:6. Why does a Verizon VX6700 Phone (which is the same phone?), have the ability to gather data from fieldtrial.exe's GPS tab when making a call (to phone number: 922 and the obvious 911)? Some other people who are also as interested in this as myself with the sprint carrier, have tried every single thing possible, including dialing 911, but still not one single bit of data appears in fieldtrial.exe
C:I will try to save you from giving me the carrier dependent affiliation response. Dialing 911 is not a recommended action.
D: D: Proprietary information

Q:7. What is different between Sprint and Verizon's ROM that makes the change in operability, or am I missing something that is different in the schematics of the phone itself? D:Sprint's and Verizon's CDMA network and what they require to use in the 6700

C: I have heard everything: "It doesn't work on the Sprint BMF framework", "You need to be a Sprint Developer to have access to that function and API", and "You need a Certificate from VeriSign for 400$". Possibilities exist for everything. Nothing is impossible.
D: Where did you hear that? You install it through a storage card as an email attachment or through Enroller just sign in.

Most people do not understand my point of view. It is possible for me to buy a Bluetooth GPS receiver and have better accuracy, but I choose not to. It's not about the accuracy, it's about having something there, but not being able to touch it, to use it, to explore it's potential. It would be like buying a new car with ONStar® and not being able to use it because GM doesn't let you. I know this is definitely not the first inquiry you have received, and it will most likely not be the last.For this I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please feel free to do a little bit of investigation on this matter if you need to, and help me fix this problem. Thank you for your time and patience in reviewing this matter with me.

D: We go by what the carrier request's. So if Sprint's want us to enable or disable some feature with in the phone we go by their standards. Unfortunately Sprint will not have more updates for the PPC6700.[/b]
_________________
Sir?
It's Trojan: "Pleasure you want. Protection you trust."

Cameron · Site Admin Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 18

My reply:

So then.

By “proprietary” information, which are you going by?:
"The business has asserted a business confidentiality claim"
"The information is not, and has not been reasonably obtainable without the business' consent"
"No statute specifically requires disclosure of the information"
"Is private information developed and exclusively owned by an individual or company. This information is not known by others nor is it a part of the public domain"

Why all the secrecy? It’s a function already implemented into the phone. If it is there, why not enable it. In analogical form, “If you have food, why not eat it.” Imagine this in monetary prophet. If you say your phone has GPS, could you imagine how big of a crowd from Palm Treo users you’re going to snag? Everyone wants a phone that can do everything. I searched for 6 months before I found one. This was in my opinion the best phone I could find. What if I decided I don't want Sprint as a carrier for my phone anymore, and I chose to change to a different carrier, and I flashed the ROM with a different carrier, could it be enabled? I know all about the encrypted ROM and the ID checks and everything that happens when you attempt to install something other than a sprint ROM. But I could most definitely perform a ROM change to a different carrier. I am sporting one from Telecom right now to enable AKU 2.2 instead of your version of 2.x to make it look like we aren't in the dark on AKU updates. Sprint’s shame goes hand and hand with yours. When we all are stuck at AKU 2.x and the rest of the world is gloating on their 3.2, how do you think that makes us feel and look, knowing our phone is better, but with less support? UTStarcom supposedly prides itself on tech support, but yet our Sprint updates are lax and prolonged until the rest of the world is two steps ahead. A quote from your website tells me that “At UTStarcom Personal Communications, we believe technology should enhance people’s lifestyle…” Why not let us enhance our lifestyles and share at least some insight on this situation.

As for “Most likely with ROM 1.05wwe. Sprint and other carriers just wanted to disable that feature because they intend on not supporting "Standalone." “ how can they not support something already implemented. It is in the phone and it should have nothing to do with them at all.
As for “Where did you hear that? You install it through a storage card as an email attachment or through Enroller just sign in”, I have that information directly from the Sprint Developer Site: http://developer.sprint.com/site/global/develop/activation_device/p_device_activation.jsp

Thank you for your time and your patience one again.

Sincerely

Cameron Julsrud
Cameron.says.hey@gmail.com
_________________
Sir?
It's Trojan: "Pleasure you want. Protection you trust."

jasonataylor · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 1

I just wanted to chime in and say how grateful I am for your research. I think it is cool. If you want it to work, it now is a question of reverse engineering or getting a friend at one of those companies to leak some docs to us.

On that note I wanted to point out that there has a been a huge interest in disassembling the entire roms for the 6700 now that the cooked roms by people like the Colonel are becoming so incredibly popular. I would think that a comparison of the disassembled sprint roms and the verizon roms might yield the answer as to how to turn on the GPS and make it work.

Lastly, after reading all this it is clear that someone needs to clue you in on why this is happening. qcom invented the gpsone tech and wants a maximum return on their investment. but they also wanted to make their chips cheap. so they put all the kitchen sink in their chips and told anyone who wanted to use it that they need to pay for each feature. sprint didn't want to shell out the bucks for the gps feature. qcom didn't want to enable it since they knew it would cut into the revenue stream from their customers like garmin, who pay qcom top $ for this sort of feature.

When this first started happening I said oh well they all need to eat. But now it has gone on for several years. people (like me) are sick of carrying around two devices instead of one. though a few gps phones have hit the market, i am in long contracts and don't want to deal with the hassles of switching. other countries have become way more advanced in this area than the usa. Anyway, if a few extreme hackers do something it doesn't affect the 99% of the users, so I wish you luck with your efforts.

Jason